TRANSCRIPT

Loretta Hart:
It's really good to be here tonight. It's wonderful to be together and witness that together, because I could hear the oohs and the ahhs and the disgust and the coming through, know, and really sitting in that together. But it's also wonderful to have you here with us, Denis. Thanks for travelling. Thanks for giving us your time. So Denis Ginnivan, who is maybe related to a footballer or not?

Denis Ginnivan:
He's related to me.

Loretta:
Excellent, I like that. Co-author of this fantastic book, 'The Indi Way', is also the director of Voices for Australia project and the founding member and past president of Voices for Indi, which started this whole beautiful community independent movement. Denis is going to share with us the history and the future. How's that sound?

Denis:
Sounds pretty good, pretty comprehensive. In 10 minutes, I'm not sure. Thank you very much. As I said, it's real pleasure to be here. To tell a story, then I think, really, what we're talking about is here is a relational story. We're talking about an idea that brings people together, because you know someone else is also interested in something, coming along and discuss things. It's not just an intellectual idea where you agree something, you're to go and do something on their own. It's typically something where you respond by working with others.

Excuse me, so, going back, happy to have some go to a of a sequence, but I'm just conscious there's a lot in this. But this, the Federal CEDA window is in North East Victoria. We had a federal member going back in, historically, who wasn't very doing their job. And we decided we've got to do something to make it go better for ourselves. And that federal member's name was Sophie Mary Bella, who sort of became like a pro-J of Tony Abbott and he a mentor. Her career through the party became the reason she was doing all this. had nothing much to do really with the community. Last time I checked, was 100,000 voters in Indi. So we decided, well, rather than just be smart-ass and bitchy about things, what can we do to make it go better? So we formed a group, constituted it.

Long story short, after a long discussion about values and structure and mission purpose, all that sort of things, we formed a group called Voices for Indi. There's 12 members on the committee. And his job was to sort of provide a portal for people to talk about things that matter that have a political dimension. So, why do you live where you live? What are the issues that you feel are important? Which ones aren't working so well? What do you think? What do you want a politician to do about some of these things? What would you want to do to participate in the change process that would find a different way to think about our politics?

So we put all this together. I should say it's on the website, the Voices for Indi kitchen table conversation report. And so that was project one, was just to get a serious mandate from our local community. So, around the dispensary of people with their own personal attitudes and opinions, they should go out and actually have a structured research sort of process to show that this is an objective thing. And the people who are doing the talking, we were doing the listening. We setting up facilitated environments within which people could speak safely about their view of politics. And you know what happens if you start talking about politics at a dinner party and no one's ready for it. They're pre-grilled oats all over the wall by mid-evening. People have an automatic pilot thing that you have an oppositional view. You don't like the way someone's talking about what they're imposing on me. So you fight back.

There's no sense of this habitually, I guess. It is not a topic that's easy if it's not facilitated in some way, where there's some rules to it. So we basically said listening is more important than talking. It pretty much got down to something like that. So until I knew what was important to my neighbor or her daughters, is a single mum, someone is unemployed, an indigenous person until you heard from them. So what it all meant for them. But you have a personal view of what you think it is, then that's happened in pre-ordained position. But rather we filled up that report with direct quotes from the people who actually spoke openly and safely because it was all confidential about what mattered to them. And so the main data was quite strong, because we've stuck to that principle of 550 people talking openly and confidently and safely about things that matter to them, about those questions I suggested earlier. I mentioned earlier. So it's a pretty good base for our subsequent action.

And from that, one of the big things that came through was that, maybe we should be supporting her. If we can't get, fact, I should say, we took that recourse to Sophie Marabella and we got about 7.3 minutes with her. I said, you know, we felt this would be a gift, actually, to say, if you listen more, this should help you in your job.

But because she's already locked into a pathway of escalation and achievement for personal wise, she saw this as, well, I already know what the people are into, I think. And then we started thinking, well, I don't think you do.

I don't think you do. And that was where that was the first fork in the road to this whole thing. If you're not listening, you're not doing your job, essentially. And so we tried to support that process of listening. Didn't work. So we decided that's, let's find someone who can give this a crack. so Cathy McGowan, story short again, went through a situation process. I was on the committee where Cathy was supported. Seemed to be the best option for us to achieve our goal as a voices for end-eye group. She got the gig, she stood for election in 2013, she won, she worked too hard because she won by 439 votes. It's a pretty big margin here. So anyway, Cathy wins, the community. It's true. We celebrate that as a major achievement by a community group. That's the first time in Australia where that idea of community and the power that the community rests in, in each of us, became apparent. And so the next year you know you've got Cathy McGowan representing us in Canberra. She stood there for three years, stood again, got in the game, majority.

Pretty 2019, Helen and Cathy were sitting on it, she's wanting to, or thinking about stepping down, if we find a replacement. And Helen Hayes got the gig through, again, through a voices type group process. Helen gets the gig.

She wins 2019, she wins 2022, and now she's going for the third one. So the fifth election in a row. I'm feeling confident, not fuborous, but confident that Helen's going to win again.

So all this started out with a pretty small ambition. I was saying earlier, if we got to a point where we increased the marginal aspect of the voting pattern in Indi, we would have been dancing on the tables. Simple as that, seriously, it was not something in our view that this was going to roll into a win. So here we are.

So I guess that's the Indi story in a nutshell. This book, I'm not fogging it by the way, but Voices for Indi is a published album, one of 13 authors, what could go wrong? 13 authors! If only they'd just compromised and did what I wanted, but it would've been fine. But it's a pretty good story of all the things that brought up the seat in a nutshell all the way up to the 2022 election when Helen won the Senate timeout.

And that's the year that we've just been talking about here with those independents who, all those independents who got in have come from a process that they in some way or another learnt from what happened in the end of it. It's not just sort of say it's all a straight line and aren't we great, but it's rather a concept of community growth. with the structure of the process and a goal of bringing people along, excuse me, was implemented. So Tony Winsor was an independent, but he came as a, he got out of the National Party or National Party got out of him. And then he stood against them and unhappily he won, unhappily for the National Party. They threw him out, but he stood as an independent and he actually won against the preselection decision to put someone else there. So there's been independence elsewhere along the way.

But this is more driven by the community without a pre-existing individual who's decided to do this. in our business model, a sense, our philosophy is that it's way better to not have someone who says, look, I think I'm terrific. Vote for me, which is as an independent, say that because there's no party. But the community independent says: There's a mob of people out there who want you to do this job and a mob of people out there who think you can do it well and they're saying mob of people are going to go in a ditch to get you there. That's the community. That's the difference in terms of terminology. I know that in the movie, the video ['No Safe Seat'], the word 'teal' comes up quite a bit. And I personally think that's a hostile term derived, invented by both media and politicians who don't like it to imply that they're all being run by one central figure. So the teals, the greens, they get used interchangeably.

It's all that's just a group of people who have got one structure. You know, the thing is that's so wrong in terms of the point of the home exercise that every community is the boss of their own representation. Every community and at this one is each community.

If someone puts the burden to your representative, that's one that uses the term material, they're insulting the people who got that person in the parliament. to me, there's media tends to think, oh, you can criticise any politician, that's where it stops. I say the community is sort of king or central to the whole thing. We, the community, are the ones with the power.

In some ways, the representative, the MP, the candidate, it's the wrong term. It's like a byproduct of that power. I know that's wrong term, but it's the idea that they come from the existing process and capacity and will, energy, determination of the community to represent, their own voice in parliament. And whoever gets the gig, becomes the rep. So the media miscue when they criticise Monique Ryan. They criticise, or some politician does, that they're criticising all the people who helped get Monique Ryan into parliament. So just respecting the avoid.

It's just disrespecting and it's easy and in the brutal world of media and politics intersecting with money behind certain media, certain parties, it's an easy way to, it's a weaponized word. I would, you might think I've got hung up on terminology, but I think if you understand that the use of that term, I believe that a community independent, puts the focus on who are the people with the power, not the TL who is the individual candidate or politician. So that's my little branch on that one, I'll stop there. But in terms of the movement broadly, so that's the end of that one. And I'm more than happy to go into more detail with questions. I know we've got a limited amount of time, but... and it also goes into the current, some of the current themes that are happening in that video. I should say that whilst the video tends to, it's come from the term, the tour hammer, everything's a nail. So the way you see it is depending on who you are, what prism you look at life through, if you're a hammer, well your job is to go and hit every hammer.

But we would argue, I would argue that not all those people who have become independent started out thinking they're going to be part of some Climate 200 strategy. They, for Climate 200, they supported many of those candidates with specific funding to get them over the line where they're competing against big out of town money. But the intention of the group and the candidate or then subsequent politician, their job is not to only focus on climate as the key issue. Because 50 per cent of the people in their own electorate probably don't see climate as the biggest issue in town. By a long shot, housing, employment, foreign policy, there's lots of big ticket items going on.

That's what I think that video is really helpful. It's great to see how far they've come in supporting those candidates. But the reason for the people being there in the first place has a broader background and context would be my thinking there. So just going to the, what I've been doing since 2019, is because we're getting a lot of inquiry from right around Australia, we ran a few workshops within Indi, but people were winging up and asking, what's in the world of Indi? What's going on? How did all this happen? What can we do to do something to pursue a similar process? So I decided to get on the road, both physically and actually and virtually through COVID and meet people who are in all sorts of, in every state and territory now, who actually were the time thinking one person's made the inquiry, I responded to those people and other resources come into play too. But respond to that person, say can you get a few people together, we can have a chat on Zoom or maybe we can visit, come talk to a group like here, wherever.

But in every state and territory, there's now about 45 voices-type groups, about 40 of which are actually now got an identified community independent candidate in the world. They're already, so that structure, some are much more developed than others, but in terms of that structure, it's come to that, this whole thing has come to this much bigger presence of potential for independence and subsequently, or... and thus communities themselves in a democracy, interesting word, last time I checked, it's what we live in. It is our right and our responsibility to look after our democracy. I think our great friends to the north east of here haven't done a very good job. They say that they're bigger democracy, but there's been, I think there's disengagement, money, speaking too loudly.

This in some ways is a panacea to the development of a political system in this country that doesn't go the same way as the US. The reason that risks of going the same way as the US because the community are the ones with the power in a democracy. So anyway, I've been all over the place. Living in territory, up in the upper Darwin, Perth, Tassie, Queensland, all over. And it's been

It's such an exuberant feeling to be asking how's the thing, what do I think of all this? But it's been a really, I feel really lucky to have been able to get on the road and start talking about this issue, which is so important, but it's never on any one day, it is urgent, but it's so important for us living where we do. Yeah, so, all those ones that we're seeing now. I know most of those people, those candidates. There's about 35 mentioned there, but there's a few more that are out in the world. So that's in a nutshell, that's where I've come from. I wanted to talk about, there's much more to do if you wish with questions about some of this stuff. But for the moment, I should put a bit of a break and give you the right to decide how much more you want to hear.

Have a seat. Yeah, you had your say.

How did you get from just a small group?

Can I ask, how do you cut through to, was what I noticed, I was a long time, sorry to do this but, I can be totally in the range of that. No, no, you're right. But it's been really interesting for me, who's been a community advocate and contributor to editing my own constituency, which was a Ballarang Land Gang group.

All of a sudden, once I became a candidate, I became a different personality. People were allowed to be rude to me. And so my question is, how do you cut back through to the community groups that don't want to talk politics, but do want to serve the community? How do you make that nexus?

So here in the human likeness community, know, they're helping with dogs and bandanas and kids.

In our case we've got a Coppatoos which is the symbol for the campaign in mean one and they've got a copy dog. Yeah, so it should be something we should celebrate rather than being some kind of sinister awkward moment where someone's gonna throw something at you if you don't agree, but I just think the dog, though, in Western Victoria, sheepdog, like loyal, tough, resilient, down to earth. I just think the sheepdog is what we just said. I think everyone heard me, they? Yeah. But there's a bit of humour in it as well. And it's not putting up a Vote One Kate Lockhart. It's just saying, I think the dog's cute.

It's clear.

I like dogs, you know, it's a much simpler, more approachable way to be heard. I think it's very clever and we toyed about some.

We have a good showing, then that'll be something that we can do next time.

Yeah, I mean Riverina, sorry Farrah, Farrah was just like the river, they come up with an emu, which is pretty evocative of joining desert sort of country. The further west you go, the more of those fellas you're to see. And it also should say it's not electoral material. So you can have that on your fence all year round. Or between elections. No one can say if you need to take down your sign.

I'm going to say, well, it's just a cockatoo. What's the problem? Who's voting for them?

But imagine driving around Corangamite, in your case, and you see this on someone, everyone's front gate, because they've already bought into the idea, I like what this is all about. Very subtle. And in effect, you could argue, I know the person who lives in that house. I know what their values or their commitments or their view about, not policy positions on things, but the way of doing politics. It's sort of like a, it's a sort of a night and a week. In fact, I should say the other day in Wairngradle for the first time, I knew that this person was around, but he's the campaign, Helen Haynes' Indi campaign jeweler. So he makes little brushes and earrings and all sorts of stuff that people can wear. Similarly, with this a night and a week effect of wearing orange as part of what you do without it being a hard political sign.

Do you have an orange thumbnail?

Oh yeah, well I should explain. I walked into the Wangaratta Hub, campaign hub the other day and there's a person there she said, well I'm the campaign beautician. I don't think I've got enough time for whatever you do. She basically said she does nails and all sorts of stuff. So I couldn't really get out of the place because she said, you need to commit if you're on the team.

So I said, okay, I'll do that. And whenever I'm giving a thumbs up, can, you know, signal that. But again, it's subtle, it's the first time in my life I've actually had any nail on my body colored at all. So this is a big leap for me out into the unknown. Yeah, so it is, again, that's fun. It's a fun story to tell. They all have a bit of a laugh.

Looking good.

My daughter's a roll in the mirror, the old man's like he's plucked.

Same sort of thing, plenty of messages because there was some boys painting fingernails for domestic violence or suicide.

I was going to say, I think you alluded to it, Kate, but at one stage when Cathy was approached by some of her nieces and nephews well before she got into this whole thing. And one of them happened to be my daughter, Leah. She said, this is in the book, but I think the interaction was pretty important because Leah said, well, I think you should do something to change the, know, do something about our politics in Indi because they were saying, well, why would we return to Indi with really bad mobile phone signal, with really bad transport system and train system and now listing off the list of things that we're not coming back unless somebody fixes them. Why would you live in a depleted rural environment? So they're putting a hard on Cathy and Cathy said, well, I've already got a job and a life and I'm having a good time. Why would I want to go and poke myself in the eye with a burnt stick and do that? And Leah said, 'It's not about you Cathy, it's about us.'

So she's the family maiden aunt. So Leah really knew how to put the gilts on. I don't know if you've been getting any pressure from anyone, Kate, but there is something quite endearing about the fact that people want a good, independent to come through and do the work and represent the region. And it is a relational thing, it's a relational commitment. And that's...

To all of our volunteers, we had 2,000 signed up in the last campaign. None of them get paid a cent. They might be getting paid if they bought things and kept the receipt for, you know, whatever. But not getting paid in a salary or wage to do anything. So it's actually why they feel it's important is driving them way, way more important than any other gain. How am I going for time? I know I've gone over my limit.

Yep, it's been wonderful.

Yeah, but you're supposed to be in control.

Okay. I've had me keep talking, I just wanted to again put a signal to say you choose. The thing about it, Denis, is that thousands of people, this shows you what can be done. You haven't got the money, the from the people follow you on the street, you've got the people. And isn't that what democracy is about?

Well, we would say we have human capital, not financial capital, that the human spirit of wanting to do something is way, way more important than paying somebody, a consultant or service provider, to do things that a volunteer could do. fact, having a role to play brings people even closer to the whole idea because they're committed, they're inside the whole plan, the plan of action.

So we don't do much fundraising. Other than what people wish to donate, but we don't have big backers. Helen Hayes got a small grant from the Climate 200, but it's about 5 per cent of our budget. So we would never say she's like a lucky to the C200 idea, because we're saying it's in proportion, that's nothing.

And it's not as if we really needed it, but it was there, so as it's getting up to nearly 500,000. It started much lower than that. But the thing is, the cost of particularly television and newspaper advertising, they really see you coming and they just jack the prices up as you get towards elections. having the capacity to respond to things quickly, even when a campaign challenge, if the opposition candidates... say, well you know make some false statement then how do you get the word out quickly to actually stop that in its tracks. So is that it is a dimension to a catamaran. saying it's got to be that amount but that's sort of where we're where we headed to. Some of the ones in this video are millions.

Sorry to be saying something again, but to raise that sort of money, must have had the business community involved and the farmer community.

Yeah, I think a lot of individuals both within Indi and outside Indi, I mean I think Indi has a bit of dimension to people from outside or around the country wanting to see it succeed because it's been there like a flagship and it can't not succeed.

But I think most of the donations are small and have come from within, but there would be some from outside. But yeah, it's an ever-present aspect, but as I said, everything that we've done has been done with volunteers on the cheap. Just last week, actually, the Liberal guy made a comment, those orange people, they seem to have a lot of money.

This is from the Liberal Party, which has got Gina and everyone else up there forking out heaps for the campaigns. So I did a bit of an accounting about what he was talking about is we actually covered a particular about 70 metre fence line, an empty block in Madonga with shade cloth fabric and then intermittent banners made out of electrical conduit and fabric, orange fabric, was all the banners draping down. And then we got an artist to come along with a stencil and she stenciled onto the fabric the images of cockatoos. Sequentially one was with the wings down and the next one with the wings up so looked like, flying to an idea, which of course they were. And then it all led to a shipping container that we put there. We got that for free and we got a big seat up on top of the shipping container, which we got for free. But the signage underneath is saying, keep the seat orange. So it's very symbolic rather than just vote one Helen Haynes. It's all to do with

What's this all about? And so it had a sort of a alluring sort of theme of entertainment is by the images. But as I said, he thought he had a lot of money and the whole thing I had to roll up was about $273 for the whole thing. It was all done voluntarily. Everything was done voluntarily. Your liberal party, fork out money, pay people to go and do that stuff.

And who comes up with such a beautifully integrated idea? Do you have someone with that challenge?

We have some people who are artists and that's, they dreamt it up. In fact, one of the guys, David is his name, but he's the one who invented the whole cockatoo thing and he's become like a national figure because everyone wants to know, how did you, what's the philosophy behind all this? So we got him up from Wengaratta to Bodonga and Margie, our campaign artist, they got together and they worked out the stenciling and some orange spray cans filled in the stencil. So it's using the natural talents of people to do things where they feel like what they've got to bring is equally as important as what others can do too. So if you can find a mob of people who all want to do something and someone might have a truck and that's what they want to do is drive around in that with side edge on it or someone who does sewing and they like to make banners or, you know, we sort of try to really push that really wide to see where's your interest lie and build that into the campaign.

See and/or read more from the evening in Ocean Grove on
https://voicesofcorangamite.org/kate-lockharts-film-night-in-ocean-grove/